Council meeting

[Derek Howie]

The fees were proposed to elicit a discussion. :-(

It's fair to say that you've succeeded in that aim, David. :-D

[David Deary]

I'll be proposing we get the smilies back under AOCB!

:-S :-@ :'-( :-D :-) ;-) :-( :-[ 8-)

[Patrick McGovern]

i have read with interest the entire thread; many opinions were voiced with passion and care.

Here are a few thoughts to debate/argue?

Why not leave the specialised arena that is junior chess to the experienced groups that currently and successfully promote juniors. They could do their own grading/tournaments without duplication. They would be outside CS in essence but could be affiliated via club/other organisation if desired.

As for representing Scotland, this could also come under the SJC/NEJCA (and others) conglomerate to run/organise/select this too with funding and support from CS. When the juniors reach a preset age (16/18?) they could then move into the senior ranks and thus under the umbrella of CS.

There are advantages in this in that the "heat" and politics would be removed from a sensitive area. These are just kids that need supported and encouraged not argued over. CS would be following their desire and raison d'etre of fostering junior chess in Scotland by partly/entirely funding some of the activities. Plus the current junior coaches/organisations would be able to get on without distractions.

There would be one (hopefully) vision and aim driving the new model with expertise already in place. Everyone agrees (I think) that the men and women currently involved in SJC/NEJCA etc are doing a good job with their charges. Give them the support to continue and further their work.

It would be in line with models existing successfully in other countries. It would not make things worse, but only improve a fragile situation.

[Andy McCulloch]

A few years ago, when I was taking my four offspring to both CFK and other events around the country, I argued that it was wrong to grade games of less than 30 minutes each as regular grades. I even got a motion to that effect passed at an AGM. This was overturned the following year due to the efforts of the then HJD. I was repeatedly informed by the people who run SJC, then as now, that it was vital to have a regular grade. Juniors and their parents valued it highly, as did the SJC personnel, but it would appear not highly enough to actually pay for it.

It is not correct that juniors are to be charged more for a 25 minute game than adults. The fee for grading an adult allegro result has for years been 18p, while for juniors it has been 9p. The rates proposed for next year are 20p and 10p respectively. The proposed 25p for juniors is for the game to be graded as regular, which will cost 50p+ for an adult game, which, incidentally, must exceed 60 minutes.

The idea that funds from junior chess are used to support Elite Adult Chess is risible. The projected budget for next season sees income from Juniors as being less than £2000, while expenditure on Junior Chess is over £6000. I believe that this has pretty much been the case since I became interested in chess,. I have looked at the accounts for the last 5 years, and, to my untrained eye, expenditure on, has always exceeded income from, junior chess.

The wringing of hands, the wailing, the gnashing of teeth in expectations of impending doom are hilarious. The entry fee is probably the smallest expenditure in relation to entering a junior event, unless you live literally next door to the venue.

I have never been able to understand why this valuable, nay essential item, the regular grade, which puts you on the same scale as Magnus Carlsen, (actually it was Kramnick when this argument was made) given away free in the first place. The English Chess Federation don't give grades away for free, neither will they grade anything that has a time of less than 60 minutes as 'regular'. Note that I am not saying that the English system is better, it is just that it is the only system that I can compare CS with.

[Derek Howie]

It is not correct that juniors are to be charged more for a 25 minute game than adults. The fee for grading an adult allegro result has for years been 18p, while for juniors it has been 9p. The rates proposed for next year are 20p and 10p respectively. The proposed 25p for juniors is for the game to be graded as regular, which will cost 50p+ for an adult game, which, incidentally, must exceed 60 minutes.

The proposed 25p for juniors is for a 25 minute junior game to be graded (as regular) and is therefore more than an adult (allegro) 25 minute game (as I understand it).

[Mike Scott]

As for representing Scotland, this could also come under the SJC/NEJCA (and others) conglomerate to run/organise/select this too with funding and support from CS. When the juniors reach a preset age (16/18?) they could then move into the senior ranks and thus under the umbrella of CS.

And how exactly do you make progress if one such event organizers decides it is a going its own way, selects its own 'national' teams, has its own grading system and asks Russia to intercede on its behalf?

It may be that there needs to be a junior national body... oh isn't that the HJB?

[robin moore]

Much as I respect Pat's opinion on this, I think he's wrong (and that's going to cost me a pint ot two!).

If Scotland wish to compete at junior international level, it must be controlled by ChessScotland (CS), the national body.

If independent junior organisations select players from different regions for international honours, with different grading databases, it would become a lottery.

How can you compare independent grading databases against each other?

If SJC (for example) are using a grading database based on Lanarkshire schools, all that would achieve is finding the best child in his/her class/year/school. SJC have a great grass roots approach in local primary schools but is the player that comes out on top the best player of their age in Scotland? Possible, but highly unlikely.

It is much more likely that the top Scottish player of the relevant agegroup is playing in multiple events in all areas of Scotland and further afield, including adult congresses.

[Andy McCulloch]

Derek, I am more than a little surprised that you don't understand the equivalence that I was pointing out.

FIDE rules, in the appendices to the laws of chess, define any game of less than 60 minutes per player as rapidplay. CS in its wisdom has a special class of game: a junior game of not less than 25 minutes per player is graded on the same basis as an adult regular grade.

ie

a junior game of 25 minutes (proposed cost of grading as regular is 25p) is equivalent to an adult game of 60 minutes or more (proposed cost of grading 50p to 60p)

a junior game of 25 minutes (proposed cost of grading as rapidplay is 10p) is equivalent to an adult game of 25 minutes (proposed cost of grading as rapidplay is 20p)

Basically a junior standard grade costs 25p as against an adult standard grade which costs 50p.
A junior rapidplay game costs 10p as against an adult rapidplay game which costs 20p.

By the way, I am saying equivalent as I was told that it did not matter how much time you gave a junior, the game would be finished in less than 25 minutes. This may be true for the majority of the hundreds of juniors who appear for 1 season or indeed only 1 tournament, but, and it's a big but, it means that any good junior can play in one of these event, score 100% and lose grading points. What a nonsense.

[Andy Howie]

I'll be proposing we get the smilies back under AOCB!

:-S :-@ :'-( :-D :-) ;-) :-( :-[ 8-)

Looks like they did not survive the transfer when the server changed. I have a backup I made in Dec and will see if I can restore from there

[Andy Howie]

Think I have worked out the problem Hope to have it fixed soon