Richardson/Spens - what next?

[Craig Pritchett]

Just to add to my previous post, it's possible to implement any changeover to a Super Cup / Scottish Cup series in 2015-16 immediately (and not wait until 2016-17, as I'd assumed). As follows:

1. In 2015-16, Spens Cup begins (as open Scottish Cup), with the four (4) 2015-16 semi-finalists qualifying for the 2015-16 Richardson (Super Cup). The Spens (Scottish) Cup final would conclude as usual end-April 2016, with the Richardson (Super Cup) 4 team, all-play-all weekend taking place late-May 2016.

2. Thereafter, top two teams from Richardson late-May 2016 weekend pre-qualify for the following year's late-May 2017 Richardson (Super Cup) weekend along with the two finalists in that year's 2016-17 Spens (Scottish) Cup (or semi-finalists, if the two finalists happen to be the already pre-qualified top two from the Richardson late-May 2016 weekend) ... and so on.

[andyburnett]

Craig's idea is an interesting one, which I like, the only detail being that Ayr Congress is now established on this late-May bank holiday weekend - and (this year at least) it included quite a lot of players who would likely be part of 'super-Cup' teams?! It might require some re-jigging of the chess calendar (not an insuperable problem I would think?!) to implement.

[Keith Rose]

From a team captain:

I favour a Richardson restricted to 8 teams with 2 groups of 4 and the comp played as a 6 board tourney. The top two in each group to play sf and final for the Cup the bottom two (A3 v B4 and B3 v A4) to play a play off match with the losers relagated to the Spens.

I favour a 5 board Spens (as now) with the finalists promoted to the Richardson.

[Keith Rose]

From a club member:

The Richardson is the Scottish Cup of chess. Changing to leagues/groups is not the way to go and there is already a Scottish National Chess League. IMHO it should remain a KO competition. The Spens is the challenge cup of Scottish Chess…you know for the likes of clubs akin to ‘The Rangers’ J. Why not have the semi-finals, final and play-offs on the same day at a fixed venue (two rounds worth) but prior to that have normal ties. If there were only 8 teams, there would be just one round before the fixed venue. The fixed venue could do both competitions on the same day and have a jamboree kind of feel.

... I strongly think that changing away from a KO (albeit with relegation play-offs so you get more than one match) would make it more like a sub national league. There has to be a place for a national cup KO competition that is different from the SNCL.

[Keith Rose]

In considering formats that require central venues there are at least two matters that must be taken into account:

Suitable venue.

I have spent some time looking through websites of potential venues in the wider central area (Grangemouth, Falkirk, Stirling). What I looked for was something a bit more 'up market' than Grangemouth Sports Centre, so concentrated on hotels and conference/meeting centres. There are a number with adequately sized rooms so something could be found, but...

Cost.

We can't overlook this. As a starting point we pay Grangemouth about £130 for the afternoon. Not many venues give prices online so more research would be needed but it looks as though adequately sized rooms would cost upwards of £175-£200 per day. If we adopt a proposal such as Craig's (i.e. two separate finals and four days) we could be looking at around £800 - I can see that as a stumbling block unless up-front external funding becomes available.

As an example, last summer I tentatively enquired of Lea Park Hotel in Grangemouth for the CS finals. The only room of suitable size would have cost £250. The same issues would apply of course for any of the suggestions involving neutral/central venues whatever format is adopted.

FYI CS entry fees for this past season were £24 per team for each event.

If anyone wishes to volunteer to research further please get in touch.

[John Blake]

Alloa Town Hall charges for comparison
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.clacksweb.org.uk/culture/alloatownhall/">http://www.clacksweb.org.uk/culture/alloatownhall/</a><!-- m -->
Sauchie Hall
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.clacksweb.org.uk/culture/sauchiehall/">http://www.clacksweb.org.uk/culture/sauchiehall/</a><!-- m -->
Alloa is near enough the geographical centre of Scotland - about 45 minutes from Glasgow or Edinburgh by car
Some church halls are pretty good, too

[Keith Rose]

Thanks John, the help's appreciated. I'll have a look at them.

[Keith Rose]

Received from a team captain:

Clearly something positive needs to be done. Is there a possibility that a Richardson Spens day could be booked in for Pittencreiff Park, Dunfermline - a date to be added to the booking that Glynis makes for the SNCL. This could be a day when the semi-finals for both tournaments are held in the morning and the finals in the afternoon plus a 3rd vs 4th in each. The winners would get the Richardson and Spens trophies, the 2nd places would receive silver medals and the winners of 3rd versus 4th bronze medals.

Clearly such an arrangement only addresses semi-finals and finals. So on the morning in question, there would be 8 teams of x players at the venue. I would leave the teams as 8 meaning 64 players in attendance all day and all players playing 2 games.

All that would remain is the organisation of quarter final ties and maybe these should run as they do at the moment.

By suggesting above where the top teams battle it out on one day at the same venue we elevate the status of both competitions and we also do this by awarding silver and bronze medals.

It may be that Pittencrieff hire for the day is too expensive for 64 players - compared with the 150-200 who turn up for SNCL. Maybe another smaller venue would be bettef. BUT for sure I think that both sets of players should play in the same venue on the same day for both semi finals and finals plus 3rd place play-offs.

I would like to say at this point that responses have been disappointing (in number, that is). Apart from postings on this forum I have had direct replies from one club, two team captains and one club member. Is it really apathy? Is it a matter of leaving the thinking to others and expecting a good solution to magically appear? I had anticipated a good-going debate over several of the issues but it ain't happening.

[George Neave]

Received from a team captain:

Clearly something positive needs to be done. Is there a possibility that a Richardson Spens day could be booked in for Pittencreiff Park, Dunfermline - a date to be added to the booking that Glynis makes for the SNCL. This could be a day when the semi-finals for both tournaments are held in the morning and the finals in the afternoon plus a 3rd vs 4th in each. The winners would get the Richardson and Spens trophies, the 2nd places would receive silver medals and the winners of 3rd versus 4th bronze medals.

Clearly such an arrangement only addresses semi-finals and finals. So on the morning in question, there would be 8 teams of x players at the venue. I would leave the teams as 8 meaning 64 players in attendance all day and all players playing 2 games.

All that would remain is the organisation of quarter final ties and maybe these should run as they do at the moment.

By suggesting above where the top teams battle it out on one day at the same venue we elevate the status of both competitions and we also do this by awarding silver and bronze medals.

It may be that Pittencrieff hire for the day is too expensive for 64 players - compared with the 150-200 who turn up for SNCL. Maybe another smaller venue would be better. BUT for sure I think that both sets of players should play in the same venue on the same day for both semi finals and finals plus 3rd place play-offs.

I would like to say at this point that responses have been disappointing (in number, that is). Apart from postings on this forum I have had direct replies from one club, two team captains and one club member. Is it really apathy? Is it a matter of leaving the thinking to others and expecting a good solution to magically appear? I had anticipated a good-going debate over several of the issues but it ain't happening.

There are a number or high rated players who will not play 2 FIDE rated games in a day. So with above either the FIDE needs dropped or the event may lose some players at top end.

Keith - re apathy - maybe it's just time of year as chess clubs generally shut up shop in summer and so these discussions on what to do are delayed or don't happen at all?

Personally I think there have been a lot of interesting ideas. All have pros and cons. Nothing will please everyone. Maybe, as home director, you should pick your favourite and give it a try for 1 year as experiment?

[Keith Rose]

George - I'm aware of some opposition to 2 games in a day and I can understand it. To reduce playing time - you couldn't play 2 five-hour (potentially) games in one day - would undermine the quality of the event in my opinion.

I agree some good and interesting points have been made, it's just a pity that there is so much contradiction.

I won't have any difficulty at all in deciding and imposing my own preferences but I had hoped for a little more input to the process. Anyway, I can probably serve due notice that change will come and for an idea of my thinking look back to my posting of April 14. If you don't like it this is the time to offer alternatives (that's not directed at you George )