Forums
Scottish Championships 2019 - Printable Version

+- Forums (https://www.chessscotland.com/forum)
+-- Forum: Members Only (https://www.chessscotland.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?fid=16)
+--- Forum: Tournaments and Events (https://www.chessscotland.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?fid=9)
+--- Thread: Scottish Championships 2019 (/showthread.php?tid=1913)

Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6


RE: Scottish Championships 2019 - Alan Tate - 15-07-2019

Apparently there was a motion passed that allows Matthew Turner to be Scottish champion. Firstly, how the did this get through? Secondly, Matthew seems like a nice chap but there is no way this can be allowed to happen. It's a large insult, especially to Colin McNab who took a quick draw thinking he'd clinched it.


RE: Scottish Championships 2019 - WBuchanan - 15-07-2019

Hi Alan. I've been scratching my head over Colin's last two quick draws. I first wondered why he didn't have a bit more of a go when he played Matthew in Round 8 (with a big prize at stake for the Open itself). Initially I took it he mainly wanted to win the Championship, but then I noticed Matthew was down as SCO. I asked Alex if he could win the title and he said yes.

I wondered if Colin was aware of this and thought of checking with him - but I felt he was bound to know and anyway it was not really my business to bother people about their own affairs.
Having seen your comment I wish I had now! But do you know this - has Colin said he thought he was winning the title? It would explain his peaceful last round!

The reason I asked Alex (before the last round) was that as far as I could tell, Matthew still didn't seem to meet any of the 'eligibility' criteria, which the last time I saw them were (one of) Scottish birth, parentage or two-year residence.

It is of course true that Matthew has made a very good contribution to Scottish Chess.

Matthew has had the SCO code for a few years after transferring his FIDE designation from England to Scotland (in 2012 ?).
However the SCO code isn't supposed to give eligibility - that's what the criteria are supposed to be for!

What was the motion you refer to?


RE: Scottish Championships 2019 - Matthew Turner - 15-07-2019

Alan,
I would like to send you a private message, but I think you have disabled this feature. Could you allow it on this occasion.
Matt


RE: Scottish Championships 2019 - amuir - 15-07-2019

(15-07-2019, 12:17 PM)Matthew Turner Wrote: Alan,
I would like to send you a private message, but I think you have disabled this feature.  Could you allow it on this occasion.
Matt

Gosh , we haven't had some controversy on the noticeboard for a long while.  Colin seems to be unlucky anyway, how many times has he been 2nd in the last two decades ? He hasn't won the title since 1995. I don't know the title SCO rules, they have changed so much over recent years, especially Jacob switching federations so many times. Perhaps another AGM vote.

It's also a long while since we had a Scottish IM (2004 Eddie) but no-one seems to make enough norms or reach the grading.

I didn't bother to spectate/play this year since busy with actuary job in Bristol.


RE: Scottish Championships 2019 - Alan Tate - 15-07-2019

Matthew - PM doesn't seem to be working for me - email me at alanwtate gmail

Walter - I recall it being discussed a few years ago but like some others, including Colin, did not know it had come into effect (it was written on the entry form).
Ask Andy M about the motion. Although he has no interest he's here...


RE: Scottish Championships 2019 - WBuchanan - 15-07-2019


(15-07-2019, 02:36 PM)Alan Tate Wrote: Matthew - PM doesn't seem to be working for me - email me at alanwtate gmail

Walter - I recall it being discussed a few years ago but like some others, including Colin, did not know it had come into effect (it was written on the entry form).
Ask Andy M about the motion. Although he has no interest he's here...

The entry form says

"Titles will only be awarded to those satisfying Scottish nationality (SCO) who are also members of Chess Scotland; "

This does not by itself imply that being given a SCO code (these are needed for FIDE admin purposes) confers Scottish nationality. The entry form has differed from published eligibility criteria before.

The SCO code did feature in one AGM motion, along with eligibility criteria. The code wasn't supposed to replace the Scottish nationality criteria! (FIDE admin complications were cited as the reason the code had such prominence in the process)

Although it did seem that the waiving of all the criteria for eligibility (i.e. for the Championship and Olympiad selection) was going to happen by stealth anyway, as many in CS management seemed to be arguing at the time, apparently with Matthew in mind.

I remember thinking that there wasn't as much members interest in such changes as there might have been. Moral of the story... Sad

(15-07-2019, 02:36 PM)Alan Tate Wrote: Matthew - PM doesn't seem to be working for me - email me at alanwtate gmail

Walter - I recall it being discussed a few years ago but like some others, including Colin, did not know it had come into effect (it was written on the entry form).
           Ask Andy M about the motion. Although he has no interest he's here...

Me again..
 
There was something at the 2016 AGM I believe. The minutes read:
 
5. Matters by members. Chess Scotland Champion must be SCO registered. Grey areas over who is Scottish and who isn’t. Discussion on wording of proposal. IE discussion onwhether this is to do with number of Country code. Minor amendment –DB suggests change to federation designation instead of Country Code. AM agrees to amendment. amendmentpassed. Vote on proposal. 16 for. 14 against. Motion passed.
https://www.chessscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/CS-AGM-2016.pdf
 
The motion itself isn't given - not so much a "grey area" but rather, invisible..

There also was a (failed) motion on eligibility at the 2015 AGM but the minute says "Current eligibility rules remain".

These were Scottish birth, residence or parentage I believe.

Do these (long-standing) criteria no longer apply?
What are the eligibility for criteria for Championships/International selection?
What is the policy? Where is it, even?


RE: Scottish Championships 2019 - Robert Lothian - 15-07-2019

(15-07-2019, 11:05 AM)Alan Tate Wrote: Apparently there was a motion passed that allows Matthew Turner to be Scottish champion. Firstly, how the did this get through? Secondly, Matthew seems like a nice chap but there is no way this can be allowed to happen. It's a large insult, especially to Colin McNab who took a quick draw thinking he'd clinched it.

If Colin thought that, then it's highly unfortunate and disappointing for him, but I don't see the insult.

FWIW: Colin would have lost on tiebreak with a last round win, so he'd have to have gone for it against Matthew in round 8.

This is the second unfortunate confusion/mini-controversy we've had in the last few years; there was a problem with the structure of the senior titles, I seem to recall. On that occasion, it seemed like nobody had really thought through the consequences of the two categories of senior, i.e. an understandable oversight. This time around, having following the agreed policy and noted it on the entry form, I find it hard to lay any fault with the organisers.

Looking forward, if there is widespread support for a specific different set of criteria, then I guess it's an issue for the AGM.

Anyway, congratulations to Matthew and commiserations to Colin.


RE: Scottish Championships 2019 - Alan Tate - 15-07-2019

I hate politics hence why I am reluctant to get involved, but it seems whoever is making the decisions needs some help.

Matthew was given SCO because he fell out with the ECF. Fine. But he is not resident here, never has been (I presume), and was not born here. 

How does it work at the AGM anyway. is a majority vote needed for something to go through, or what? Edit: Sorry Walter, just saw your 16 -14 thing so assume a majority is needed


RE: Scottish Championships 2019 - amuir - 15-07-2019

(15-07-2019, 09:20 PM)Alan Tate Wrote: I hate politics hence why I am reluctant to get involved, but it seems whoever is making the decisions needs some help.

Matthew was given SCO because he fell out with the ECF. Fine. But he is not resident here, never has been (I presume), and was not born here. 

How does it work at the AGM anyway. is a majority vote needed for something to go through, or what? Edit: Sorry Walter, just saw your 16 -14 thing so assume a majority is needed

I raised this at 2016 AGM with Jacob in mind not Matt, to stop Jacob winning when his FIDE code was DEN. Matt has benefited though. Matt has a Scottish grandparent so we allowed him SCO but players didn't want him in Olympiad at expense of Scottish born player. We didn't think it would affect Scottish Champs as Alex or Andy set up the rules on the entry form.

Matters raised by members The current rules to be eligible to be Scottish Champion are set out in Section A of “Scottish Champion Entry Rules”: An additional sentence shall be added: To be eligible to be Scottish Champion or Scottish Senior Champion a player must also be FIDE registered as Scotland with a SCO code. Proposed: Andy Muir – Seconded: George Neave

won 16-14 because people didn't like the Jacob idea of playing for DEN against SCO in Olympiad/Europeans and then taking SCO champs title. 

does matt now get automatic olympiad place as SCO champ ? we usually finish about 80th anyway. Only one player would miss out. An honorary selection would not be a bad thing for his support. can help coach other players to the title


RE: Scottish Championships 2019 - hamish olson - 15-07-2019

I am not going to discuss the rights and wrongs of the eligibility criteria as they now stand - that's something for the AGM and there are pros and cons on both sides.

However I really do think that Chessscotland's (not the tournament organisers) communication could be improved.
I was under the distinct impression that Matthew was not eligible for Scottish champion until I found out after round 8 and the same goes for a lot of the players who were contending in the final rounds that I was speaking to throughout the event. (Not people who have posted here so far). Did this just get changed in some AGM attended by 12 people (plus proxy votes by the looks of it) and then not really publicised anywhere?

On another note, congratulations Matthew Smile