Forums

David,

You are right. It's about building a squad and good work has been done on this. It's not about cherry picking or puting unreasonable expectations down from the start.

Good work has been done on building a squad by Paul and Robin and indeed by Phil previously.

Consistency of representation with parents knowing their children will get opportunities if they do well at local events is important. Playing for your country is a massive attraction and the juniors involved or seeking to be involved boost the whole of Chess in Scotland.

A squad always has stronger and less strong members. Together they are a 'Squad'

From the current Squad of juniors I'm confident that some will breakthrough and make Scotland proud.
As said. They are all getting the opportunity to prove themselves.
All that's required is for their Country to put some faith behind them also and support them participating in a wholesome activity.
Instead we have a culture where they'd rather spend money repairing the damage caused by youth mispending their time. In Aberdeen we're running at about 1 school a year set on fire!!

What do we define as success??

Lets take the Olympiad team as an example. They are going to be seeded 60ish, maybe lower. What are we taking as a measurement of success for that team? Normally we compare v where they are in the seeding, should we not be doing that for the Juniors?

Now look at the Euro, where we are indirectly discussing Ian. What would be success for him? Call me old fashioned but If he goes there and learns from the coaching, from the games and comes back a better player then that is a success. The score is irrelevant. It is what is learnt that is invaluable. Lets say Ian then goes on when he is a bit older and does as Calum, Andrew and others are doing and start to pass on his knowledge and experience to the next generation of up and coming juniors. Is that not funding well spent? What if is exploits are highlighted in his school and brings more into the game, is that not a success as well? Apologies Angus for using Ian but as he seems to be highlighted, I really want to show to people that success is simply not a score on a wallchart.

There are two ways we can go, we can try to produce an elite squad or we can give our Juniors the opportunity to represents Scotland. I would say at the moment that with the funding and infrastructure we have, we would be foolish to try and produce an elite squad and we should be trying to give opportunities for representation.

We have some talented juniors that we are trying to do the best with relying on peanuts and the serious good will of parents. Whilst I would not have an objection to a realistic minimum grade (and one that would have historically meant that only 9 in history would have represented Scotland for an age group is not realistic) we need to get behind the squad 150%.

Pretty soon we are going to have to embrace the FIDE coaching system. There are already moves to have it brought in so that for a Coach to go to Euro or Worlds, they would have to be accredited. If that succeeds then will it have an effect on the coaching in the country? Of course it won't!

For the record, I do and always will believe in anyone who goes to represent us.

Angus McDonald Wrote:David,

You are right. It's about building a squad and good work has been done on this. It's not about cherry picking or puting unreasonable expectations down from the start.

Good work has been done on building a squad by Paul and Robin and indeed by Phil previously.

Consistency of representation with parents knowing their children will get opportunities if they do well at local events is important. Playing for your country is a massive attraction and the juniors involved or seeking to be involved boost the whole of Chess in Scotland.

A squad always has stronger and less strong members. Together they are a 'Squad'

From the current Squad of juniors I'm confident that some will breakthrough and make Scotland proud.
As said. They are all getting the opportunity to prove themselves.
All that's required is for their Country to put some faith behind them also and support them participating in a wholesome activity.
Instead we have a culture where they'd rather spend money repairing the damage caused by youth mispending their time. In Aberdeen we're running at about 1 school a year set on fire!!

Angus, Could not agree more!!!

Andy
If going to the Euros/Worlds is such a great learning experience then given the number of players who have attended over the last countless number of years where are all the players that benefited? Just look at the grading lists. I am afraid that the score does matter. Especially in chess.

Would you expect a 1st year secondary school physics pupil to benefit from being attending an undergraduate degree lecture on quantum mechanics? No - they simply would not have the necessary foundation knowledge to understand the lesson.

That is not to say they are not talented and could not work their way up, given the right instruction and hard work on their part BEFORE they attend.

Mike,

Why not do that. Show me who has not benefited from going to the Euros (please don't use names as that would be just wrong). You will find they are very much in the minority

There's little logic in saying that out of say 40 games played in a year the 9 games at the Euroyouth were the ones that stopped a child progressing!!??

As someone who's studied Child Development and Acquisition of Skill at Degree level I'm confident that the youngsters going to 'all' events are learning. The young mind is extremely able at learning and the young talented mind more so. I played 1 of the lads at Mureck this year in Dundee and he played a fantastic game and showed great creativity at the board. First time up at these events is always tough but they are all learning through experience that they will need to become stronger to compete at a higher level. There's not one junior who's represented Scotland recently who hasn't come to that realisation through experience.
I'm confident that a good number will use that as a spur to move them forward in the game.

There are though always plateau's of growth and it is inevitable that there will be spells where a player appears stuck. It's during these periods they are often learning the most. I think Andy H alluded to that earlier. Far from being ditched they should be supported and if they eventually can't progress further then they themselves are likely to know they've reached their limit.
Btw, All the top Scottish Juniors under 20 are well under graded in my opinion. That takes time because of the Fide rating system and not enough Fide rated games to rectify itself. But it will!!

Angus McDonald Wrote:Out of yourself, Robin and Alan nobody defended Ian instead you praised Jamie's post. Really nice for Ian to read that 10 days before he goes to the Euroyouth. He'd much rather I say nothing allthough he's upset again by this but! Why should I keep quiet!!

Angus,

I am assuming that was directed at me. At no point have I got involved by mentioning Ian, or a specific age or junior. In fact, so as to stay clear of this to a certain extent, I have not even stated my position on this. All I have done is suggest it might be nice to hear both sides of an argument. Ironically this makes me some kind of bad guy, well so be it. I am all for freedom of speech.

I am probably as interested and supportive of juniors as anyone, so I am fully behind anyone who gets selected and goes to an event. I wouldn't have even thought it was necessary to say that, anyone who knows me is well aware of that.

I stand by what I said about Jamie's post. It is interesting and should be discussed. That is not the same as supporting it or agreeing with everything in it.

As for a correct time to discuss it, yeah people are probably right. Perhaps now isn't right, but that doesn't mean it should be swept under a carpet.

Perhaps it is the wrong time to be discussing this, mainly because people lose ALL sense of objectivity when discussing family and chess. And as usual the people who shout the loudest have the strongest opinions and use others to back up their statements. It is rarely useful to have such strong opinions about anything. I have learnt that when I feel very strongly about something it usually means there are other motives at work.... I wonder what they could be?
Oh and please, let's dispose of terms like 'barrier'....

Admin maybe you could move this thread so as not to detract from the important funding thread.

Adam,

Yourself, Robin and Alan are all involved in helping the juniors. So have I been in the past.

When someone suggests ridiculous!!! grading limits it should be you who are saying so instead of saying yeh! lets hear more of this stuff. All in my opinion, pro freedom of speech etc etc.

Also when someone suggests there are only 3 juniors worthy of support and you are one of them then you should also be nipping that one in the bud also!!!

Quote:Perhaps it is the wrong time to be discussing this, mainly because people lose ALL sense of objectivity when discussing family and chess. And as usual the people who shout the loudest have the strongest opinions and use others to back up their statements. It is rarely useful to have such strong opinions about anything. I have learnt that when I feel very strongly about something it usually means there are other motives at work.... I wonder what they could be?
Oh and please, let's dispose of terms like 'barrier'....

Admin maybe you could move this thread so as not to detract from the important funding thread.

Alan,

The above is arrogant tosh. It's the grading limits suggested which have lost 'All' sense of objectivity.
And you supported them.
Now, explain to me where I lost 'All' sense of objectivity
I've just explained to you where you did!