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Liverpool Quadrangular
#21
[quote="David G Congalton"
[quote="Jacqui Thomas"]My concern on both the Glorney & Liverpool events this year is the fact that the players did not all pay the same amount to attend & this is maybe something that David can look at for the future as there should not be any variances/different prices as that makes it discriminatory.[/quote]
[quote="David G Congalton"
Given the accommodation used I'm not sure how else I could have done this without penalising those travelling with more than one adult or one child who would effectively be paying part of somebody elses room.
I stand by the costs for Liverpool and believe that I used the fairest method for all, so have to disagree with there not being any price differences, on this or any other similar occassion.
[/quote]

David I am not dwelling on the past that cannot be changed but trying to encourage for the future. I agree you would have been limited on what you could do. I am also trying to bring more awareness for organisers to think more broadly when making plans as it needs to be done fairly, so I repeat all the players should pay the same. Junior Chess should not be limited for participation by being too expensive - it needs to be inclusive. This subject has been raised before.

The biggest difference with the Junior scene is that up until season 2008/2009 very few parents travelled with the squad, anywhere. It was the squad with chaperones & coaches only in the main.
Parents were encouraged to accompany their child from 2008 if they were keen to attend, it has up until this year, always been as an extra. Therefore any accommodation, meals, travel & therefore costs were organised for the players first & foremost & equal. As example in 2010 Liverpool, at Nightingale Lodge, lodge charged £15 a head B & B for everyone, coach was £1200, self catering for whole weekend £15 a head. 26 players, 4 CS officials = 30 = £85 a head but £10 subsidy given = £75. However, parents & siblings (who as they were travelling anyway then became reserves) also wished to come so they were charged £55 (£30B & B, £10coach, £15food) a head which in turn repaid some of the subsidy. In that year no additional coaches were taken & the team managers did the coaching apart from U16's who did their own prep & they won the tournament.

I would not try & kid anyone that the Nightingale is of a particularly high standard but the facilities it gave & the accommodation it gave provided a great atmosphere & team spirit. Unfortunately it closed down in 2011 so it couldn't be used.

It might be that the Premier is better for everyone but I still think when organising a squad event like that where costs are important from the offset that all concerned know exactly how much it is going to cost up front before they commit. By working it out for the squad & officials in the first instance (as they are definite) & give a price based on the squad members sharing 3 to a room or similar, the parents can then make a decision themselves after, whether to book a room for themselves. This matter is better discussed rather than written so i will stop now as I am sure I will get responses who have totally misunderstood.
#22
David G Congalton Wrote:
Jacqui Thomas Wrote:& yes any sponsorship would be ideal but a lot of us have been saying that for a long time & I cant see it happening with funds needed elsewhere for the sensory boards & Commonwealth events.

Saying and doing are different things. So I'm not going to say much, other than I don't share this pessimistic view.

I am not being pessimistic as such as I have based it on fact that over the last 5 years it hasnt happened & its not been through a lack of people trying - me included. (I even tried to get some for the Commonwealth, unsuccessfully). Maybe more things like my sponsored blitz should be organised or quizzes as I was well supported & it covered the majority of costs to give the U21's a training weekend with GM Stuart Conquest
#23
David G Congalton Wrote:
Jacqui Thomas Wrote:Maybe the junior budget needs to reviewed as to how it is spent.

I alluded to this before and believe this is a strategy decision for the IJD and the CS board, giving due consideration to the views of the membership.

Not just the views of 'the membership' but more specifically the parents that are involved & the ones that have to keep digging deeper in their pockets. However, I would hope they also consider what I have already mentioned about being all inclusive. I understand from Linda's post that the parents decided that they needed to upgrade the accommodation for Liverpool but that did come at a premium. So then as Linda also says is it worth it for 3 games? (or 2). Or more to the point would it be worth it if it was cheaper just for the sake of two nights in budget accommodation? #justsaying
#24
robin moore Wrote:Some feedback from Liverpool from parents...
Premier Inn- "Perfect". "So much better than in previous years". "Excellent staff".
Breakfast and lunch- "Perfect"
Saturday evening meal- There was a problem with the seating and timing but food has been described as "first class". Coaching- "Excellent". Matt, Calum and Jonathan came in for particularly high praise.

The one thing no-one has mentioned to me so far is costs. Obviously costs are important but everyone seems to have been happy to pay more for a much higher standard of food and accomodation.

One definite negative is that many parents felt that we shouldn't have played people up into older agegroups, Murad, Lennart, Declan etc. I accept the sole responsibity for that decision but as I have mentioned in an earlier post we were in a difficult situation with regard to the Scottish prelim exams.

Robin.

Nobody has disputed the standard of accommodation & organisation at the actual event this year. As you will read in my post above I am trying to get through that organisers need to consider 'all' & not make junior chess an exclusive club. The costs need to be fair & to do that is charge everyone the same but to make that fair you need to work out the costs for the players & officials first - then the parents.

Do you honestly think anyone would in this day & age actually say I cant really afford it, its too much for what we will get in return. No I don't think so, as apart from anything else they wouldn't want to let their child miss out on representing their country. Especially as they would have already committed before knowing the cost.

As for the 'difficult situation' regarding prelims. It wasn't the reason for all, notably Daniel, as some prelims are not until February (he just didnt want to do the Premier as didnt like it in 2007). The 3 x U16 boards had notified by 1st October their unavailability - 2 months notice.
#25
Costing is certainly an issue. There's obviously some kind of balance in terms of cost vs quality. I'd be interested to hear from the parents and players who went to the event the previous few year. They're the "customers" as such, so their input should be very seriously considered when deciding policy for international events in the future.
#26
Calum MacQueen Wrote:Costing is certainly an issue. There's obviously some kind of balance in terms of cost vs quality. I'd be interested to hear from the parents and players who went to the event the previous few year. They're the "customers" as such, so their input should be very seriously considered when deciding policy for international events in the future.
#SF
#27
Jacqui wrote,


Quote:It might be that the Premier is better for everyone but I still think when organising a squad event like that where costs are important from the offset that all concerned know exactly how much it is going to cost up front before they commit. By working it out for the squad & officials in the first instance (as they are definite) & give a price based on the squad members sharing 3 to a room or similar, the parents can then make a decision themselves after, whether to book a room for themselves. This matter is better discussed rather than written so i will stop now as I am sure I will get responses who have totally misunderstood.

Jacqui, you are spot on about price differences over quality of accomodation. Can we resolve it? Not easily.
#28
Jacqui wrote,

Quote:As for the 'difficult situation' regarding prelims. It wasn't the reason for all, notably Daniel, as some prelims are not until February (he just didnt want to do the Premier as didnt like it in 2007). The 3 x U16 boards had notified by 1st October their unavailability - 2 months notice.

Five U16's declined invitations. Daniel was the only one who declined because of the accomodation.
#29
Jacqui Thomas Wrote:The costs need to be fair & to do that is charge everyone the same but to make that fair you need to work out the costs for the players & officials first - then the parents.

Jacqui, the costs were fair and all players were charged the same. All parents were e-mailed on Sunday 21st October with as much detail about the trip as I had at the time. The parents received one of two e-mails depending on whether they had booked the Premier Inn themselves or required accommodation provisionally booked on behalf of Chess Scotland. For the sake of clarity I have posted below the entire original e-mail sent to those who had not booked independently. The e-mail does contain a couple of errors, such as bus drop off point, that were corrected in subsequent correspondence.

From the e-mail you will see that the basic price for a player was £80 and that this only went up when an adult decided to accompany them.

Dear All,

Firstly, I would like to congratulate all those selected to represent Scotland at this years Liverpool Quadrangular tournament. Since my return to playing chess in the last three or four years I have certainly seen an increase in the number of good junior players taking part in events during that time and it is a great achievement to be one of those selected.

In order to plan and organise everything I would be grateful if you could let me know, as soon as possible -
  • who will be accompanying the selected player(s)?

    Chess Scotland has booked rooms at the Premier Inn for the squad and this will allow me to allocate rooms to players and their families. Please let me know as soon as possible so that I can make the necessary arrangements.

    I am assuming, unless otherwise advised, that everyone travelling (adults and children) will need a seat on the bus but would be grateful if you could confirm the number of seats required and your pick up point.

    I’m also assuming that everyone will take advantage of the special meal prices and all meals (except Friday and Sunday evening at the service station coach stop) are included in the price below. I would be grateful if you could confirm the number for meals and any special dietary needs. The restaurant does cater for vegetarian diets and other special dietary choices or needs.

    On Friday and Sunday evening those travelling by bus should bring some money with them if they wish to get something to eat at Gretna Services.


Once I have the information above I will be able to advise exactly how much cost of the trip will be.

As I mentioned, this year we have decided to use the Liverpool West Derby Premier Inn as the accommodation base for the squad, instead of the hostel type accommodation used last year, which was generally felt to be only just adequate. Unfortunately, this makes the cost slightly more expensive than last year but is more than compensated by the higher standard of the accommodation, as well as excellent value for breakfasts and the Saturday evening meal.

The cost of the trip for those that have not independently booked accommodation is outlined below. This price includes
  • Two night’s accommodation in a family room at the Liverpool West Derby Premier Inn. Players travelling on their own will be accommodated in a shared room with up to two other players

    return coach travel from one of the pick up points on Friday and Sunday

    return travel to the playing venue on the Saturday and travel to the venue on Sunday

    breakfast on Saturday and Sunday

    lunch on both days

    evening meal on the Saturday at the Beefeater restaurant adjacent to the Premier Inn

Price with accommodation
Price
1 Junior £ 80.00
1 Adult + 1 Junior £ 220.00
1 Adult + 2 Juniors £ 255.00
2 Adults + 1 Junior £ 280.00
2 Adults + 2Juniors £ 315.00
2 Adults + 3 Juniors £ 350.00




The provisional travel schedule is –

FRIDAY 30TH NOVEMBER

1400HRS DEPART DUNDEE RAILWAY STATION LAY BY RIVERSIDE DRIVE

1445HRS PERTH BROXDEN SERVICES

1530HRS EDINBURGH FORTH ROAD BRIDGE CAR PARK ON LEFT

1615HRS BOTHWELL SERVICES

1815HRS GRETNA SERVIES WELCOME BREAK (45MIN STOP)

TRAVEL TO LIVERPOOL -

SATURDAY 1ST DECEMBER

AM (TIME TO BE CONFIRMED) DEPART WEST DERBY PREMIER INN TO LIVERPOOL COLLEGE SECONDARY SCHOOL FOR COMPETITION

RETURN BACK TO WEST DERBY PREMIER INN AFTER COMPETITION

SUNDAY 2ND DECEMBER

0900HRS DEPART WEST DERBY PREMIER INN TO LIVERPOOL COLLEGE SECONDARY SCHOOL FOR COMPETITION

1330HRS DEPART LIVERPOOL COLLEGE SECONDARY SCHOOL FOR RETURN JOUNREY

1600HRS GRETNA SERVIES WELCOME BREAK

1800HRS BOTHWELL SERVICES

1845HRS EDINBURGH FORTH ROAD BRIDGE CAR PARK ON LEFT

1930HRS PERTH BROXDEN SERVICES

2000HRS DUNDEE RAILWAY STATION LAY BY RIVERSIDE DRIVE

The provisional playing schedules are –

Saturday – 1.30pm to 7.00pm
Sunday – 10.00am to 12.30pm

However, Peter Purland of the ECF is currently abroad on holiday and quoted these times from memory. He is back on the 5th of November when I will confirm the times with him.

The Saturday playing session has an impact on the evening dinner time. The restaurant has scheduled the squad in for 7pm but this shouldn’t be too much of an issue as the venue is only 10 to 15 minutes from the Premier Inn.

In the next few days I shall send out parental consent forms and medical information forms (which obviously will be confidential) for the children taking part. I would be grateful if you could take the time to complete them and get them back to me as soon as you can.

Finally, I’m sure Robin or Donald will correct me if any of this information is incorrect or has been changed but if you have any questions, concerns or need any further information please let me know and I will do my best to help.

Kind Regards

David Congalton
Finance
Chess Scotland
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#30
Jacqui wrote..

Quote:As example in 2010 Liverpool, at Nightingale Lodge, lodge charged £15 a head B & B for everyone, coach was £1200, self catering for whole weekend £15 a head. 26 players, 4 CS officials = 30 = £85 a head but £10 subsidy given = £75.

David wrote..

Quote:The cost of the trip for those that have not independently booked accommodation is outlined below. This price includes

Two night’s accommodation in a family room at the Liverpool West Derby Premier Inn. Players travelling on their own will be accommodated in a shared room with up to two other players

return coach travel from one of the pick up points on Friday and Sunday

return travel to the playing venue on the Saturday and travel to the venue on Sunday

breakfast on Saturday and Sunday

lunch on both days

evening meal on the Saturday at the Beefeater restaurant adjacent to the Premier Inn
Price with accommodation
Price
1 Junior £ 80.00

I think I know which one I would prefer.


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